[原创]一个想法：应该从频率响应角度研究神经元之间的运作

QUOTE:

以下是引用汪之旻在2007-8-17 15:58:00的发言：

钱卓的所谓俄伟大发现不过是我国另一个自欺欺人的神话而已

不否认可以通过这种方式读取大脑信息，但是就算是读取也是粗浅的，更不要说是制造一个智能了

关于LTP和LDP我有一个问题

比如说一般情况下神经元有1-》2-》3的通路

，但是因为某种关系另外有一个通路4-》5-》6

如果因为某个原因2-》5有通路，但是在4启动之时5已经被2启动，而且处于不应期，会产生什么效果？

如果长期出现这种情况会怎么样？

你说的后面一种假设，是真有这样的文章研究过了。你可以参阅：

Emergence of Input Specificity of LTP during Development of Retinotectal Connections In Vivo

Huizhong W. Tao ², Li I. Zhang ^{2, 3}, Florian Engert ² and Mu-ming Poo ^,
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Received 19 January 2001;  Revised 23 May 2001.  Available online 7 September 2001.

Huizhong W. Tao ², Li I. Zhang ^{2, 3}, Florian Engert ² and Mu-ming Poo ^,
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Received 19 January 2001;  Revised 23 May 2001.  Available online 7 September 2001.

Input specificity of activity-induced synaptic modification was examined in the developing Xenopus retinotectal connections. Early in development, long-term potentiation (LTP) induced by theta burst stimulation (TBS) at one retinal input spreads to other unstimulated converging inputs on the same tectal neuron. As the animal develops, LTP induced by the same TBS becomes input specific, a change that correlates with the increased complexity of tectal dendrites and more restricted distribution of dendritic Ca²⁺ evoked by each retinal input. In contrast, LTP induced by 1 Hz correlated pre- and postsynaptic spiking is input specific throughout the same developmental period. Thus, input specificity of LTP emerges with neural development and depends on the pattern of synaptic activity.

如果查不到原文，我可以帮你。

可能是刚刚自学人工智能吧，很多专业文献都没读过，对神经科学也只是了解个大概，不过总感觉他的思路应该是可行的，也就是说大脑存储信息是按照单个的概念进行分解的，而不是原模原样地存储完整的信息。大概这也是自然选择的结果吧，造物主总是青睐简单高效的结构，呵呵。如果研究单个神经元的层次是1，研究整个大脑的层次是10，那他研究的层次大概在2、3左右吧，在这个层次上如果有了很明确的结果那么对于计算机模拟人脑还是很有帮助的。

另外想请教各位前辈在哪里可以查询到相关文献阿，国内的好像都是要收费的。。。

多看一些英文文献会对你有更大的启示，甚至会改变你目前的观念。如果你需要哪篇文章，我可以帮你下载。

呵呵好的先谢谢啦

QUOTE:

以下是引用bioguider在2007-8-17 20:40:00的发言：

你说的后面一种假设，是真有这样的文章研究过了。你可以参阅：

Emergence of Input Specificity of LTP during Development of Retinotectal Connections In Vivo

Huizhong W. Tao ², Li I. Zhang ^{2, 3}, Florian Engert ² and Mu-ming Poo ^,
    
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Received 19 January 2001;  Revised 23 May 2001.  Available online 7 September 2001.

Huizhong W. Tao ², Li I. Zhang ^{2, 3}, Florian Engert ² and Mu-ming Poo ^,
    
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Received 19 January 2001;  Revised 23 May 2001.  Available online 7 September 2001.

Huizhong W. Tao ², Li I. Zhang ^{2, 3}, Florian Engert ² and Mu-ming Poo ^,
  
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Received 19 January 2001;  Revised 23 May 2001.  Available online 7 September 2001.

Input specificity of activity-induced synaptic modification was examined in the developing Xenopus retinotectal connections. Early in development, long-term potentiation (LTP) induced by theta burst stimulation (TBS) at one retinal input spreads to other unstimulated converging inputs on the same tectal neuron. As the animal develops, LTP induced by the same TBS becomes input specific, a change that correlates with the increased complexity of tectal dendrites and more restricted distribution of dendritic Ca²⁺ evoked by each retinal input. In contrast, LTP induced by 1 Hz correlated pre- and postsynaptic spiking is input specific throughout the same developmental period. Thus, input specificity of LTP emerges with neural development and depends on the pattern of synaptic activity.

如果查不到原文，我可以帮你。

已经找到原文谢谢

cluster of neurons 是困难之处，因为这样的复杂性会增大到n^2的数量级

But one thing is still unclear(it may be my stupidity) through reading the paper

How did they make a 200HZ spikes on a neuron? Through using voltage clamps?

 

 

cluster of neurons:是神经元受体相对集中的地方

How did they make a 200HZ spikes on a neuron? Through using voltage clamps? 向电极注入电流，就能引起NEURON 发放。发放的频率根据不同神经元的特性所决定。有一种FAST SPIKING的神经元，频率是很高的。记录ACTION POTENTIAL一般是电流钳。但如果用LOOSE PATCH， 就不分了。

I'm sorry but did you observe this kind of high frequency firing cell with out using clamps in brain?

I major in CS, currently studying AI, wanna some info from you important.

It seems that I should work harder in order to prevent something bad happens.

......By the way, can Mr. Bioguider help me find this article?

"Katz L C,  Shatz  C  J,  Synaptic activity  and thec onstruction of cortical circuits. Science, 1996, 274: 1133 —1138"

 I didn't find a way to view the article, it's really old but seems interesting,

I have thought in the direction for 3 years, and I think we need more info from biology to support our idea. The brain consists of so many kind of different neurons that it will be a great work to make it all clear.

Here is a question: can we use less types of neurons to make a equvalent intelligence? From current experiments carried out by biologists, the answer is no.

However, I should notify you of the Expert System, which consists of concepts and rules, very similar to the concept type of NN functionally, with much faster speed in computing and good plasticity.

If you can't find any major(Note) difference between the Expert System and the concept type of NN, I suggest you give up the idea of developing a NN of concept for your sake.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-8-21 13:18:01编辑过]

can we use less types of neurons to make a equvalent intelligence? From current experiments carried out by biologists, the answer is no.

觉得某些可以省略某些不能省略，比如把人的小脑切除，他只是走不稳而已，并没有失去人性啊。另外人脑确实很复杂，不过可以先从简单的入手啊，比如昆虫，或者更低等的动物。。。生物也是慢慢进化来的。

呵呵又在班门弄斧了