神经所学生关于蒲先生新年祝词的讨论

我觉得对大家有点启发,所以就发在这,希望对大家有用:

读完楼主的帖子，我的心情竟是久久不能平复，正如老子所云：大音希声，大象希形。我现在终于明白我缺乏的是什么了，正是楼主那种对真理的执着追求和楼主那种对理想的艰苦实践所产生的厚重感。面对楼主的帖子，我震惊得几乎不能动弹了，楼主那种裂纸欲出的大手笔，竟使我忍不住一次次的翻开楼主的帖子，每看一次，赞赏之情就激长数分，我总在想，是否有神灵活在它灵秀的外表下，以至能使人三月不知肉味，使人有余音穿梁，三日不绝的感受。楼主，你写得实在是太好了。我唯一能做的，就只有把这个帖子顶上去这件事了。楼主的帖子实在是写得太好了。文笔流畅，修辞得体，深得魏晋诸朝遗风，更将唐风宋骨发扬得入木三分，能在有生之年看见楼主的这个帖子。实在是我三生之幸啊。看完楼主的这个帖子之后，我竟感发生出一种无以名之的悲痛感――啊，这么好的帖子，如果将来我再也看不到了，那我该怎么办？那我该怎么办？直到我毫不犹豫的把楼主的这个帖子收藏了。我内心的那种激动才逐渐平复下来。可是我立刻想到，这么好的帖子，倘若别人看不到，那么不是浪费楼主的心血吗？经过痛苦的思想斗争，我终于下定决心，我要把这个帖子一直往上顶，往上顶！顶到所有人都看到为止遇到你之前，我对人世间是否有真正的圣人是怀疑的；而现在，我终于相信了！我曾经忘情于汉廷的歌赋，我曾经惊讶于李杜的诗才，我曾经流连于宋元的词曲；但现在，我才知道我有多么浅薄！楼主你的高尚情操太让人感动了。在现在这样一个物欲横流的金钱社会里，竟然还能见到楼主这样的性情中人，无疑是我这辈子最大的幸运。让我深深感受到了人性的伟大。楼主的帖子，就好比黑暗中刺裂夜空的闪电，又好比撕开乌云的阳光，一瞬间就让我如饮甘露，让我明白了永恒的真理在这个世界上是真实存在着的。只有楼主这样具备广阔胸怀和完整知识体系的人，才能作为这真理的唯一引言者。看了楼主的帖子，让我陷入了严肃的思考中，我认为，如果不把楼主的帖子顶上去，就是对真理的一种背叛，就是对谬论的极大妥协。因此，我决定义无返顾的顶了说的好啊！我在这个论坛打滚这么多年，所谓阅人无数，就算没有见过猪走路，也总明白猪肉是啥味道的。一看到楼主的气势，我就觉得楼主同在论坛里灌水的那帮小混蛋有着本质的差别，那忧郁的语调，那熟悉的签名，还有字里行间高屋建瓴的辞藻。没用的，楼主，就算你怎么换马甲都是没有用的，你的亿万拥戴者早已经把你认出来了，你一定就是传说中的最强ID。自从论坛改版之后，我就已经心灰意冷，对论坛也没抱什么希望了，传说已经幻灭，神话已经终结，留在论坛还有什么意思。没想到，没想到，今天可以再睹楼主的风范，我激动得忍不住就在屏幕前流下了眼泪。是啊，只要在楼主的带领下，论坛就有希望了。我的内心再一次沸腾了，我胸腔里的血再一次燃烧了。楼主的几句话虽然简单，却概括扼要，一语道出了我们苦想多年的而不可得答案的几个重大问题的根本。楼主就好比论坛的明灯，楼主就好比论坛的方向，楼主就好比论坛的栋梁。有楼主在，论坛的明天必将更好！大师的话真如“大音希声扫阴翳”，犹如”拨开云雾见青天”，使我等网民看到了希望，看到了未来！晴天霹雳，醍醐灌顶或许不足以形容大师文章的万一；巫山行云，长江流水更难以比拟大师的文才！黄钟大吕，振聋发聩！你烛照天下，明见万里；雨露苍生，泽被万方！透过你深邃的文字，我仿佛看到了你鹰视狼顾，龙行虎步的伟岸英姿；仿佛看到了你手执如椽大笔，写天下文章的智慧神态；仿佛看见了你按剑四顾，江山无数的英武气概……
　　　　苍天之下，厚土之上，竟有如此奇人异士、文人墨客！讥讽于谈笑间，笑骂于无形中，层次之高，境界之深，非我等所能匹及，偶像啊！ 它句句精美，情节曲折，而又始终不离中心思想，引人入胜，淡淡的言语中，显示人生之大道理，充分体现了您深厚的文化底韵与丰富的社会经验，真可谓讽刺之经典，骂人之绝学，这正是我辈苦学闷读追求的至高境界啊！
　　　　楼主，是你让我深深地理解了‘人外有人，天外有天’这句话。谢谢侬！
　　　　楼主，你要继续努力啊！你是社区的希望啊！

能把神经所的网址告诉我吗？

http://www.ion.ac.cn

呵,你想了解哪方面的情况?

诸位学长学姐：我是学临床的，但我一直对神经科学很感兴趣，我今年考了神经所的研究生，还有10天就知道成绩了，如果我有机会参加复试的话，希望能向诸位了解一下神经所的情况，谢谢， 我的email是：hansong_hu@hotmail.com

亲爱的研究生伙伴们：
读了蒋辉和宁龙的信，我也有一些感想。
感谢他们把他们的经验如此坦诚、详尽、系统地告诉大家，应该会对别人有所启迪和帮助，但如果是作为对蒲的04 blessing的回应，我还有一些其他看法。
蒲的04 blessing谈到"one of the founding principles of ION is to provide an environment for creative scientific work"，这样一个环境, PIs 需要，学生更需要。蒲的first message to PIs 要求PIs 给学生足够的自由度去完成自己的设想，正是为了保证每个学生在具体的由各个PI运作下的实验室有这样一个环境。
有了这样一个环境之后，每个学生如何去发展自己的创造力, 就是见仁见智的事情了，每个人都可能有自己的方法。但这样一个环境是必需的，否则即使阅读了大量的文献，并且有了自己独特的想法，却无法实践我们的设想, 又怎么样能够检验、发展自己的创造力？
顺便提一下, 我想蒲对阅读文献的观点是"Don't read too much to lose your own opinion"，他针对的不是阅读文献本身，而是提醒大家不要在大量文献中丧失了自己的视角和观点。事实上，他在04 blessing中不是对一些PIs限制学生阅读文献的作法表示反感吗 (" Over the years, I heard repeated stories that……")？
不管怎样吧，这些只是枝节问题。下面我想从学生自身的角度谈谈我的感想。
作为神经所的学生，我觉得以下几个问题是大家需要问问自己的：
1． 我在神经所的发展目标是什么？
2． 神经所的发展目标是什么？
3． 为了把我们个人的发展目标和神经所的发展目标和谐地统一起来，我/我们需要一个什么样的环境，我们自己又应该作些什么？
4． 我个人能对神经所的发展作出什么样的贡献？

对于第一个问题，我自己的答案是：我要在神经所学到一些能令我终生受益的东西。有一两篇3.5分或更高级别的文章并不能使我终生受益，真正有益的是在研究、发表文章的过程中学会如何把自己的Original creative thought转变为Practicable scientific research。诚然，毕业的压力是一个非常现实的问题，3.5分的规则要求学生"discover something"， 但是我觉得对于初出茅庐的学生来说，科研训练的目标应该是"learn how to discover something"。 "Discover something" 只是实现这个目标过程中的一个附加结果，而不是目标本身。如果为了这个附加结果而忽视对目标本身的追求，是舍本逐末，相当可惜的。

关于第二个问题，蒲的03年会报告已经展现了神经所未来的发展方向。

第三个问题，正是蒲在04 Blessing中的first message 所解决的问题。我想，蒲所要求PIs所给予我们的环境，正是我/我们能够发展我们的创造力，达到我们的发展目标的环境。对于PIs来说，他们的发展目标和我们有所不同。他们早已超越了"learn how to discover something"的阶段，他们现在的目标和任务就是要"discover something"。How to do it? 他们有他们自己的经验和想法，但是他们的思想、经验无法代替我们自己的思想、经验，我们需要一定的成长空间去获得自己的体验。当然，在获得这种体验的过程中，学生不仅仅得到了自身的发展，也对实验室的工作作出了自己的贡献。
如果更进一步想想，也许蒲的这一Message背后的意义不仅仅是给学生一个充分的成长空间。就我个人看来，蒲已在着手营建神经所的科学文化。他所致力的科学文化不是基于传统儒家思想的长幼有序的构架，而是基于"民主"和"科学"的现代精神（无论"德先生"和"赛先生"的诞生日有多久远，他们仍然是现代社会的基本精神）。有了这样精神底蕴的科学文化，才能真正在"严谨的科学态度，批评的交流态度，有essential tension的环境"下保持自由、平等的交流和活泼的创造力吧。要建立这样的科学文化，绝非蒲一人之力所能完成，需要我们大家一起去努力。最重要的是我们自己心中要有"民主"和"科学"的精神，拿它们作为我们行为的一个大的原则。人人生而平等，在科学面前更是这样。

对第四个问题，我觉得我们应尽我们所能在科研工作和科学文化的建立两方面为神经所的发展多作贡献。我/我们不应该仅仅着眼于小我的发展，更何况小我的发展本身就不能脱离整个大环境。我佩服蒲的社会责任感，他确实是为了推动科研发展而不是为了个人利益在作事情。我们每个人也应该想一想，我们自己的肩膀上应该承担起什么样的责任？我想，我们每个人都应该从我作起，从点滴作起，在不断提升自己科研能力的同时，用自己的行为去影响周围的环境，逐步创造出一个良好的科研环境和科学文化。我们当中很多研究生都很有才能和抱负，也许很快就会成为新一代年轻的PI，如果我们真的在科研目标和科学文化两方面都有了属于自己的好的判断和准则，其良好效应也许将不仅仅局限于神经所。
有些事情，只要大家努力去做，往往会发现，并没有想象中困难。我亲眼见到神经所有些实验室运作得很好，不仅仅是给学生一个自由的成长空间，更为学生的成长提供(而非硬性灌输)必要的建议和帮助。每个学生都很积极和热情地发展自己的创造力，也很主动地为实验室和其他同学作出自己的贡献。这样的气氛下，没有一个学生会坐等着PI为自己把课题完全设计好。我感到，一个良好的科研环境不仅是不限制学生的创造力，而且会激发起学生更主动地去积极创造、去努力工作。我觉得，学生的发展和实验室的发展绝对不是矛盾对立的，应该而且确实可以形成一个良性互动的共同发展模式。

我是一个七年级的研究生，我很惭愧，我不能说我已完成了我自己的发展目标，也不能说我已尽到了我应尽的责任。但是，静夜反思，我常常激励自己：不要放弃努力，不要停止追求，不要变得"中庸，苟且，小智小慧"，不要成为年轻的心中曾经不希望自己成为的人。

让我们一起为自己、也为神经所的明天而努力。

Dear all,
After reading Mu-ming and Ninglong's message, I do feel shame that I did not speak up publicly during the past three years I spent in ION. I am the student that will give a low score if we take the poll Mu-ming mentioned in his message. But I (and I think the most of us) waited for Mu-ming to do more, to encourage students, to push PIs. While Mu-ming is asking PIs to give us more freedom to explore science, I see many of us are still waiting for PIs to give them projects. I also see some students around me are discouraged or turn their interests to stuffs unrelated to science. I did not do anything to boost their interests before, while Mu-ming was trying everything he can, even against PIs. I did think it is "inappropriate" for me, a junior student, to do such things. But now, I will give up anything related to "keep modest","save face", and "respect elder", and speak about my own experiences during the past three years. I think my experiences are of some values for new commers. I think it is the only way that I can help new students here, the only way that I can share some responsibilities from Mu-ming for students. I also hope other PIs/students can give your opinions.
Generally, I do not fully agree with Mu-ming's opinion that students need not read much. Several disavantages make hard reading necessary: Firstly, most new students cannot read scientific literature smoothly, especially outside the field that they are currently working on; secondly, undergraduate education in China laggs behind the world over 20 years, and we need update our knowledge through reading. For example, several years ago, undergraduate students in Berkeley are asked to describe the mechanism and stucture of Arp2/3 in their final examination of cell biology. I am quite sure that most, if not all, students can not learn about Arp2/3 in their universities. Third, people not knowing the progress in other field will possibly miss the chance to boost their own research. A recent example is the groups rushed into RNAi mechanism resarch. Compared with other groups in the RNA field, the labs took the opportunity boosted rapidly, like Hannon lab, Cold Spring Harbor laboratory. I can say that if we do not read for the sake of reading itself, we are safe from loosing ourselves in the huge amount of literatures.
Starting period: getting out the situation of innocent
I was almost innocent about neuroscience before I joined ION. I only had some pieced knowledge about action potential, axon. I knew nothing about neuroanatomy, neurodevelopment, and high-level functions such as vision. The first research paper I read is a Cell paper from Yi Rao lab. It took me a week to stumble through it! I was so upset and discouraged at that time. I thought I was inappropriate for neuroscience. I think some of the new comers may share the same feeling as me. Finally, I passed through that period. What I did was that I spent three months in our library without doing any experiment. I randomly picked up papers from CNS, neuron, J.Neurosci. Before reading them, read the related chapters in Principles of Neuroscience, then go to the papers. I read them sentence by sentence. It was really hard initially, but soon I felt encouraging, because I found that I could read faster after several weeks. At the end of three months, I found I learned something unexpected: I can feel the quality of papers, that is, I can tell the paper is J.Neurosci or Neuron according to my own judgement. I never had the experience again, because I had experiments to do now. I don't know how other students passed through this period. I think the only way to be not innocent is hard reading. I hope other students/PIs can give your opinions. If most of you have the same feelings, I hope students can be allowed to spend more time in library.
Improvement: systematic reading
When I was OK for reading itself and critical reading, I held an ambitious goal: to be an expert of every aspect of neuroscience. Of course, I gave it up finally, but I really explored many aspects. And the process is still not finished yet. I took up two strategies: textbook oriented and people oriented.
I read Principle of neurosciences chapter by chapter, and read my interested original papers listed after each chapter, especially reviews. I also searched Pubmed for the names cited often, because I wanted to know what publications can make someone "giant". I still remembered that I gasped at the beautiful publication list of Tom Jessell and some others.
Another approach of systematic reading is people oriented. I downloaded materials about neuroscience winners from the Nobel Prize website. Firstly, see what they say about their fields. Then I will try to find out their students, and see what they are doing now. I often make "lineage trees" for those peoples. I can still remember the excitement when I made the list of Kuffler, Hubel & Wiesel, Shatz&Stryker&Katz... The names on the NAS site are also useful. I also made my reading list from Journals: Cell, Neuron, J.Neurosci editorial board members, Current opinions, Triends editorial borad members. You will find the world is really small: many of them are in multiple boards. Notabally, what I read were mostly reviews, but I ensured at least one research paper for each of them. This kind of readings brought me many funs, I felt very intimate with some of them, although I never met them. Sometimes, I can guess the content of their next paper.
Furthur improvement:
One way I found can keep improving me: Look at lab websites of those "giants". Several things need to be done: find out what they are doing now; is it the most important question addressable in his field; can it be improved or difficult problems can be solved by introducing some new techonologies or cooperation with another lab (I always think of doing two rounds of Postdoc for one important question or field).
Discussion: I have the chance to closely discuss with stimulus mentor, which is not available for most students. My experience is not appliable for all, so I will not talk about it here.
I think if you have clear vision of your field, you will easily find interesting questions and hypothesis to work on, and need not wait for assignment.
I hope my experience and feeling can help a little for those wondering what to do at their beggining period. There must be other good ways. I hope you can share your experiences with us students. I do hope the students can hold ambitious goals, it is one good way to prevent you from been depressed by current problems.
Best ,
Hui

Dear student colleagues,

Probably you have read the new year message from Mu-ming. As a senior student I truly believe what Mu-ming has pointed out are really the key probems existing in ION. They are directly related to everyone of us. Consider what the pressure and antagonism Mu-ming has taken on his own shoulders, when he point out the problems with such clearness, especcially in PIs. Consider how much energy he has put in shaping this institute. Consider what a conductive environment he has created for the students. What do you think? What would you do? He needs the students' support, not just now, but from now to the far future, to support ION's development to a "Safe Haven" for creative scientific work in China!

Regards!

I just saw a copy of Jiang Hui's discussion with others at ION.
1) Independence.
For me, I thought that one important point happening around the time of graduate school was that I realized that I was responsible for myself.
Perhaps this happens earlier for others, but this realization was crucial since one no longer looks for (or imagines) that others will be around to "help". One can run into different people including those who may help or hurt you, but they are peripheral, not the major, factors.
Once you realize that, you no longer wait for someone (or some institution) to assign you something or set a task, you find them and decide what to do. You may need to consult others or learn from others, but the major decision-maker for your life is yourself.
Not only do you find that answering exam questions is no longer sufficient since you need to look for questions, but you also find that what you used to look up to (some senior members of the family, schools or the abstract concept of nation), actually often lacks both questions and answers. What you thought that you could rely on all turn out to have defects that they in a sense become unreliable. Rather than feeling disappointed, you can also view that as signs of maturity and independence, it is your time to make a difference.

2) Motivation.
Once one realize that you are independent in deciding what do you with your life, you should decide whether you are motivated to do science before you keep staying in graduate school. If not, you need to try to change. If you are motivated, then you find your advisors and colleagues, you find what you can take on as a project. You can talk with others, but your research is in your head and in your hands.
You do not work for the PIs. You work for yourself.

3) Carrying on the work now and thinking about the next step(s).
You need to think about your research when it goes well or not so well. You need to train yourself even when your work goes on very well.
I know of a few students who did extremely well in graduate school because the labs they work in were in a very productive phase and the students rode the wave.
Some of them failed in the next stage. Sometimes because their fields dried up and they were not well prepared to change and sometimes because they did not have patience to explore in the darkness since their previous period had worked out so smoothly without much searching in the darkness. In a way, early successes became the reasons of their later failures.

4) Reading.
How much and what each of us read often affect our thinking and our work. Individual variations can contribute to the diversity of the approaches. Without certain background, one may end up asking questions that have been answered or taking approaches that have proven futile or designing experiments that have already been done. Reading too much may inhibit one's own creativity and get one into certain habits. The "appropriate" middle-ground is everyone's guess (and partly shapes what each of us become).
A simple way to read is to follow and understand what the authors say. A natural next step is to be able to read critically. A more demanding way is to find results to build a new hypothesis that even the authors have not thought about. This is made harder, since the authors, especially nowadays, do not present a lot of results that they could not understand.

5) Discussion.
I feel that there should be more discussion of science at lunch time and other times when students run into each other. Most of the time, you can find fun in others' work. Sometimes you may directly stimulate each other's work.

6) Competition.
Since the most familiar part of student life is competition (for grades), it is natural that many are concerned about this. Although no longer in the form of grades (since no one really cares about your grades as long as you pass), many students care about other forms of competition. This is also a nature part of animal life (competing to be the alpha male, for example)
If one really cares, one need to realize that there is a major paradox: the true results of such kind of competitions can only be tabulated near the end of one's career (or one's life). But then, most people would (or could) not care since they are close to the end.
Enjoying what you do everyday is perhaps more fruitful than joining an endless and often illusive competition of a life time.

Happy Spring Festival!

Yi

Yi Rao
Department of Anatomy and Neurobiology
Washington University School of Medicine
Box 8108
660 S. Euclid Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63110
USA

Tel.: 314-362-9388
Fax: 314-362-3446
Email: raoyi@thalamus.wustl.edu

Website: http://thalamus.wustl.edu/raolab/website/

Dear students,
It is my delight to receive the responses( to me and to all). Li Yan's letter reminded me that I can provide some other useful information. I have a fold named "Q&A", which contains the interviews of some good scientists by the journal "current biology". The interviews are really wonderful. They are in a fixed style, including questions like:
What do you consider your biggest mistake? What is your greatest ambition in research? What advice would you offer to someone starting a career in biology?What are the main challenges you see for the biomedical science community?
I think you will be interested in hearing from these scientists. According to my view, their advices to young scientists are nearly the same: interest is the most important factor that will make a successful scientific life, although will not secure.
For encouraging those at low spirit now. Please read interview of Henry Bourne. Henry is among the few labs discovering G proteins, but he did not win Nobel Prize ( the prize went to Gilman and Rodbell). Henry was once so near the Prize. The reason that he failed was he didn't purify the proteins, precisely he couldn't, becuase he could not do biochemistry. Henry also talked about his early years in research. He entered research simply he wouldn't go to Vietnam, not for his interest. He would not be a leading scientist, if God did not give him chance. He stumbled into science at the age 32 as he puted it in the interview. Anyway, read it. You will find big scientist's "blood and tears".
Another story I can tell you is from Bert Vogelstein, the most cited in the cancer field, a real giant that only in dreams I can imagine I hold similar position in neuroscience. I cann't remember clearly the source of the story, but I remember so clearly because it is funny. Bert was a clinical physician initially. He turned to basic research because he couldn't bear the situation that he cannot cure the patients with cancer. When his mentor asked him to pipette something, he did not know that he should use a gun to suck and puff the things in the tube, what he asked is: which side should I put in my mouth. He wanted to use his mouth to puff something. I can declare that everyone in this institute is much more better than him at the beggining. If you have doubts on yourself, now you can dismiss them clearly. what you really should think clearly is: am I interested in science?
I will share the fold named "Q&A" for all. the fold is at the computer " Fengly5".
For my former letter, I might have overstated the importance of reading. I was not arguing against Mu-ming, and fully agree with what Ninlong puted. Mu-ming is right that if you will lose yourself in the literature, don't read them. But his message will be easily taken, or simplified as not reading much. It is not good for newcomer. I often put aside the papers, when no new idea or criticism come to my mind. This kind of reading is unbearable and useless. As Yi said, everyone may have his own balance in reading, what I said is only for reference, but not for everyone's practice. Big questions in the field will easily be recognized, the only thing we need to consider is can we find or creat something to provide solutions. In my early years of reading, I ws often proud of my ideas and hoping to put some into practice in the future. But soon I found what I think is underway or have been done by some labs, often giant labs. Reading a dozen papers may lead to the same directions as those good labs. Therefore, to save time, the easy way is to look at what they are doing now. A follower will not, of course, be a great scientist. The reason that I still keep and interested in tracing these labs is that I hope to find methods from them for unresolved problem or find some clues of combination that will lead to a brand new improvement in some field.
In short, what I am saying is: everyone can do science no matter what you think of yourself now; read only when you can feel you can learn something, if not, sleep is a good choice.
Happy spring festival!
Hui